"downtown" Jerry Brown signs the Dream Act

[a Mad Cow]

hahaha, this one is just for you Morrow:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvVGLSgAHMU]To All My DREAMheads - YouTube[/ame]

 

[a Mad Cow]

This post has been edited, my statement was incorrect.

 

[SteveGangi]

By the way, whether these students are "illegals" is the debate of the dream act.

In my opinion, if you're born in America, you're my fellow American, regardless of your PARENTS status. I know a lot won't agree with me there.

The Dream Act only applies to "illegals" born in the USA. The dream act is the first venue for these American born "illegals" to receive full citizenship.

By the way, they receive no more "funding" then the kid that lives down the street from you, about 4k every 2 years.

If you think that's too much to spare for education while these lazy asses on welfare eat for free then go out and hit the pipe, "then you be trippin'."

If they are BORN here, they are legal, so I guess then the bigger question is, Where Is All This Money Gonna Come From.

I don't EVEN want to get into the whole "anchor baby" thing because I don't know WHAT is the right answer. In that case I would blame the parent but not punish the kid, who had no say in the matter. But on the whole, this thing stinks of quotas and "reverse racism".

 

[a Mad Cow]

If they are BORN here, they are legal, so I guess then the bigger question is, Where Is All This Money Gonna Come From.

I don't EVEN want to get into the whole "anchor baby" thing because I don't know WHAT is the right answer. In that case I would blame the parent but not punish the kid, who had no say in the matter. But on the whole, this thing stinks of quotas and "reverse racism".

I edited my post because I screwed up, the DREAM act doesn't even concern those BORN in the USA like I had assumed (or maybe was told incorrectly at one point)?

Either way my post there is irrelevant and I should have fact checked before I opened my mouth.

That being said, looking into the details of the Bill, I don't agree with it. Sounds more like a free handout to me that me and my peers can barely qualify for ourselves if you make less than minimum wage.

It's possible I'd reconsider my thoughts if the terms "must sign up for the draft" were changed to "must serve 4 years in the military".

Cow

 

[mgenet]

You mean like Perry of Texas?

Texas is the other state that did about the same thing.
Don't know if Rick Perry had anything to do with it though.

Devil is in the details. Right now the headline is getting the press.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't EVEN want to get into the whole "anchor baby" thing because I don't know WHAT is the right answer.

A Constitutional Amendment to require at least one parent to be a citizen would answer that issue very simply. I don't have a problem with that, myself.

 

[SteveGangi]

It's all good, Mad. Sometimes it's a bitch finding out exactly what's going on - the news guys and politicians only give the slices of info that suit their agenda. They've gotten pretty good at spinning and misinformation.

 

[lunchbox]

Any hard numbers? I don't have that book on my shelves.

It's been a while since I read the book, but the numbers would be minimal.

Now that you know how it feels, I trust you'll not do it again. That was the point of my exemplifying the behavior I critiqued. Kinda like taking something away from a child as a punishment for being greedy.

Sounds like you speak from experience, though you must have failed to learn the lesson.

Aww...there I go again...pot to kettle and all.

I agree that there are humane ways of behaving, and inhumane ways. I don't think it's inhumane to guard the expenditure of our limited tax resources. I also don't think people who may not have paid into those taxes should have a claim on the benefits those taxes provide.

This has been covered ad nauseam. But I guess it needs to be said again:

Every person in the USA pays taxes, whether they be payroll, sales tax, sin tax, gas tax, etc. Illegals are not living here on the free ride that the right would have you believe.

You don't let homeless people uninvited into your house, do you? No. You help them by taking your help to them. I bet that if one set up shop in your living room and started eating your food, that whole gripe about "human-defined section" would be put into a finer perspective.

Of course there's limitations, and your example would be one of those.

Now quit feigning to care so much about this subject. If you're really so worried about migrants and their economic effects, then you need to leave North America. Because unless you're 100% Native American, you and your ancestors have taken part to some degree of stealing this land from them.

 

[Skintaster]

It would be nice to have some utopian society where borders didn't need to exist, and people could migrate in any way that suited them, but that will never happen because the inherent problems would be too great.

I had a much longer post, but edited it down. I'll leave it at this: As long as the USA exists as a sovereign nation, we have every right to limit who gets to be a citizen, for any number of reasons. We have one of the most liberal immigration systems in the world, and although it needs to be overhauled, it still extends the opportunity of citizenship to more foreign nationals than any other I can think of.

At some point, things have to be paid for, and it's ludicrous to sink more money into entitlements for illegal aliens.

And it's really sh!tty and incorrect to paint those that oppose illegal immigration as being conservatives or xenophobes. People of all political bents are against it, and it seems that more are coming around to that way of thinking every day. There are reasons for that, and they don't necessarily have anything to do with "racism" or xenophobia.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's been a while since I read the book, but the numbers would be minimal.

Well, put some numbers up to support your contention, please? Make your case. Certainly you don't expect people to simply take your word for it, do you?

Sounds like you speak from experience, though you must have failed to learn the lesson.

Wrong, but nice try. See, being a parent, I've got a pretty good idea of how to deal with children.

Aww...there I go again...pot to kettle and all.

Yeah, "NO U" seems to be your idea of intelligent discussion. Perhaps those numbers are harder to find than to tout?

This has been covered ad nauseam. But I guess it needs to be said again:

Every person in the USA pays taxes, whether they be payroll, sales tax, sin tax, gas tax, etc. Illegals are not living here on the free ride that the right would have you believe.

Indeed. But some pay more taxes than others, based on the nature of their residency and employment. For instance, both farm-workers and construction workers are often paid under-the-table in cash with no records made, nor taxes paid. Oddly enough, here in California, those two fields are dominated by immigrant workers. I wonder why?

Now quit feigning to care so much about this subject. If you're really so worried about migrants and their economic effects, then you need to leave North America. Because unless you're 100% Native American, you and your ancestors have taken part to some degree of stealing this land from them.

Firstly, I'm one-eighth Blackfoot, thankyouverymuch, so I can stay, according to this silly standard -- inheritance, y'know?

Secondly, by your logic, you must reject all nation-states, because all were forged with violence.

Thirdly, reductio ad absurdum would demand that we all crowd into Africa.

Fourthly, you should quit assuming things about me like what I do and don't care about. You only make yourself look more childish.

Fifthly, I don't know who appointed you Asst Sec'y of Determining What Constitutes Residency and Citizenship, but I doubt his credentials outweigh those of elected legislators.

Please come up with something more substantive if you reply. Until then, you have a nice day.

 

[Drew224]

Which part/parts are misinformed?

Speaking of Rick Perry in any way other than as a redneck piece of shit. I can see it from a mile away.

 

[lunchbox]

Well, put some numbers up to support your contention, please? Make your case. Certainly you don't expect people to simply aqke your word for it, do you?

Yeah, "NO U" seems to be your idea of intelligent discussion. Perhaps those numbers are harder to find than to tout?

It's called 'reading a book'. You should try it sometime, especially if you're so interested in the subject. You might learn something from what a University professor has to say.

Wrong, but nice try. See, being a parent, I've got a pretty good idea of how to deal with children.

Me too!

Indeed. But some pay more taxes than others, based on the nature of their residency and employment. For instance, both farm-workers and construction workers are often paid under-the-table in cash with no records made, nor taxes paid. Oddly enough, here in California, those two fields are dominated by immigrant workers. I wonder why?

It seems you have no grasp on economics.

Hiring US citizens to do this same work would make our food prices skyrocket. You'd be hard pressed to find average US citizens that are willing to do the work required to harvest vegetables and fruits for minimum wage (or lower).

Firstly, I'm one-eighth Blackfoot, thankyouverymuch, so I can stay, according to this silly standard -- inheritance, y'know?

Secondly, by your logic, you must reject all nation-states, because all were forged with violence.

Thirdly, reductio ad absurdum would demand that we all crowd into Africa.

Fourthly, you should quit assuming things about me like what I do and don't care about. You only make yourself look more childish.

Fifthly, I don't know who appointed you Asst Sec'y of Determining What Constitutes Residency, but I doubt his credentials outweigh those of elected legislators.

Please come up with something more substantive if you reply. Until then, you have a nice day.

1. Then 7/8 of you should go, that is if you really care so much about it.

2. Bingo!

3. Not true, and it's migration, silly.

4. How does it make me look childish? Is it the nature of children to assume to know how others think? Please post some data to support this argument.

5. I appointed myself. I believe that residency = born on planet Earth. Now those Martians, we gotta watch out for them!

6. Who appointed you forum-thread-substantive-comment-monitor?

Thanks, I will have a nice day. Going to Lake Lopez with the family.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's called 'reading a book'. You should try it sometime, especially if you're so interested in the subject. You might learn something from what a University professor has to say.

It's not my job to prove your claims. You make the claim, you support it. Or, you lose the chance to change my mind.

As far as reading goes, I do plenty of it. I wouldn't mind reading that book, but my implicit point, which I had assumed you intelligent enough to pick up, is that I don't have the book handy at the moment and don't know that the numbers you put up are in any way accurate.

Th burden of evidence is on the claimant. Now, back up your claim.

It seems you have no grasp on economics.

Hiring US citizens to do this same work would make our food prices skyrocket. You'd be hard pressed to find average US citizens that are willing to do the work required to harvest vegetables and fruits for minimum wage (or lower).

That's a different issue. I do understand what you point out, but that wasn't my point; you're raising that point without answering mine, which is that not everyone pays taxes equally, and some pay no income tax at all, and that furthermore, at least two job fields where that is regularly practiced are populated by immigrants, and it is my contention based on personal experience that a substantial number of those employed in those fields are illegal.

Now, you can answer my point, or you can continue to try to dodge it. It doesn't matter to me, except that further dodging will only undermine the point you seek to make.

1. Then 7/8 of you should go, that is if you really care so much about it.

Good to see you know your math, but I'm thinking you failed biology. Go back to school and call me when you graduate.

2. Bingo!

And how would you propose to replace the services they provide?

3. Not true, and it's migration, silly.

Actually, it is true, no matter if you call it "migration" or "return to one's homeland" or what-have-you. And H. Sapiens displaced H. Neanderthalensis in both Europe and Asia Minor. You are, I presume, H. Sapiens. By your logic, you should return to Africa.

4. How does it make me look childish? Is it the nature of children to assume to know how others think?

Yes.

Please post some data to support this argument.

Sure, no problem:

Piaget used a number of creative and clever techniques to study the mental abilities of children. One of the famous techniques egocentrism involved using a three-dimensional display of a mountain scene. Children are asked to choose a picture that showed the scene they had observed. Most children are able to do this with little difficulty. Next, children are asked to select a picture showing what someone else would have observed when looking at the mountain from a different viewpoint.

Invariably, children almost always choose the scene showing their own view of the mountain scene. According to Piaget, children experience this difficulty because they are unable to take on another person's perspective.

Preoperational Stage of Cognitive Development

You see? That's how you reply when someone asks for your sources.

5. I appointed myself. I believe that residency = born on planet Earth. Now those Martians, we gotta watch out for them!

In that case, I'll pass. I regard residency as "paying into the system".

6. Who appointed you forum-thread-substantive-comment-monitor?

Oh, there's the "NO U" thing, in a different guise. <sigh> I speak my mind. If you don't like questions, feel free to ignore me.

Thanks, I will have a nice day. Going to Lake Lopez with the family.

Enjoy.

 

[duck2k]

I am not surprised to see this (where is Pete Wilson when you need him?), but not happy. I wonder how many Californians are really upset over this? I would be holding protests, and voting accordingly when the time comes.

 

[SteveGangi]

I am not surprised to see this (where is Pete Wilson when you need him?), but not happy. I wonder how many Californians are really upset over this? I would be holding protests, and voting accordingly when the time comes.

Oh, rest assured, I will vote appropriately when the time comes. Not that it even matters anymore.

 

[morrow]

hahaha, this one is just for you Morrow:

To All My DREAMheads - YouTube

I hate rap

 

[PunkerJon]

Tired of scrolling through all the posts... But unless you actually LIVE here in CA WTF do you care? Doesn't YOUR state have it's own problems to deal with? ... When your state is the Utopia that we can all model ours after I'll listen to your suggestions, until then stay the F out of my kitchen... Granted I think that ALL immigrants should follow the rules but in reality that ain't gonna happen anytime soon and most of you bitching about it would rather ride the EDD train than bust their ass in the fields, kitchens, toilets, etc... If I lost my job tomorrow I'd do what it took to keep a roof over my head and my dog fed WITHOUT government assistance... How many of you can TRUTHFULLY say that? I'm guessing 1.2%... I still remember how much it pained dad to accept we had to get food stamps... And the drive to fend for myself he instilled in me lives today even though he does not... And still I'd rather have EDUCATED illegal immigrants on my dollar than UNEDUCATED lazy stupid ass US citizens any day... They are good hard working people trying to make a better life for themselves... Isn't that what the american dream is all about?

 

[PunkerJon]

Oh, rest assured, I will vote appropriately when the time comes. Not that it even matters anymore.

Now someone is finally taking sense.... When are you all going to realize that our elected officials only care about us when it's reelection time?

 

[TwangyTele]

Dear Jerry,

I am a young idealistic voter who is writing to you because I feel the need to express myself. I am a full time college student, a part time youth sports umpire, somehow I also find time to be a busy musician who also volunteers at a few local churches. I am white, long haired, healthy and athletic. Please read all of that as "ineligible for financial aid." But I don't complain, I just go to school and do the best possible job I can. But I cannot say the same from all of my peers. For whatever reasons, often my fellow classmates skip their school, don't study for tests, don't engage in the lectures, they don't take an active role in their education! As I paint this gloomy picture with a wide brush that doesn't apply to all students in every school, I am here to say that I am furious about the Dream act. Students who receive these handouts do not put in the work to make their financial aid a good investment because they don't have the same urgency that us middle class hardworking family folks have to be good students and learners! While the notion of education for all is a terrific goal and a important part of the goals and ideals that this country was founded on, I urge you to consider what I feel to be important and simple facts:

1) Government has to be a sustainable entity
2) People who pay taxes into their government expect to be represented by their govt.
3) People who do not participate in their Govt and who are not in reality members of the masses that the governing represent, do not pay taxes into said Govt. (illegal, unauthorized, undocumented aliens residing in our country)
4th and most important) Government that provides for these illegal aliens is running their finances at a rate that is unsustainable

I applaud you for doing what you consider to be upholding the values that the founding fathers wanted when they crafted the blueprints for our country over 200 years ago, but I urge you to take a good look at the political picture here in our state and in our nation. Registered, tax paying, patriotic members of society that you represent as our governor do not want to be paying for illegal aliens to be educated, We want them out of the country and we do not want any more to relocate to our great state and nation without going through the required by law processes to become a citizen. Please don't give them the impression and invitation that coming here illegally is acceptable or encouraged!

I thank you very much for your time. I hope that with patience and understanding, we can continue to grow the melting pot of all people from all backgrounds to come to the United States so that they may achieve all of the wishes and freedoms that have enticed millions of people before them. But I plead that they would do it in a manner that is legal. Paying taxes, going through the paperwork and checks, doing all of required work that everyone else has already had to do at whenever point their family became members of our nation.

Simply put, the Dream act does not support the wants and needs of the people you represent, please do what is right and not what is going to make you a hero for particular races of people who are not legally able to be involved in our political system!

-Jesse C
Lodi CA

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hey, Jess, I think he's a Strat guy.