attenuator questions

[Barber]

Sorry if this is in the wrong sub forum.

I have a specific question about attenuators that I'm hoping to get some opinions on,

I've done my research, and I've read about and read reviews on just about every attenuator out there, from the bugera 100$ unit all the way upto the fryette and the ox. I have formed some opinions about what the better sounding ones might be, but I'm wanting to know something from someone with some hands on experience with them

… so I'm playing a friedman dirty Shirley mini 20w... the sound I want, involves the master being on 10, and the gain being 60%. Turning the master down isn't the sound I am looking for. I have no neighbors to complain about noise, and I have a large open floor plan basement that I play in.. so my only issue is that I will end up damaging my own hearing. It is brutally loud, even in a large space, and I'm standing about 30ft away from the amp/cab also.

All I need from an attenuator is a small DB cut, just to bring me down to safe and tolerable levels... probably -3db or -5, not much more... I'm not trying to crush it down to bedroom volume, I don't need line outs or cab sims, I just need to take the edge off it. Pretty much all of the criticisms of any attenuator are aimed at the higher levels of attenuation, when people are really squishing the volume down, and so what I am wondering is IF it is really going to matter all that much (in my situation) which attenuator (within reason) that I get?

at minimal levels of attenuation, am I really going to benefit from the highest quality units? or is this something that virtually any attenuator can handle?


The fryette power station seems to be very highly rated ($699 new), but would the Rivera rock crusher ($550 new) achieve the same things when I'm only looking for maybe a 5db cut? is it possible that an even cheaper resistive unit would get me the same results also?

I hope you can see what im getting at here! thanks

 

[jimmyjames]

Secondhand Aracom DAG will cover all bases, including impedance mismatch

 

[BKS]

What about earplugs....

 

[NotScott]

I have (3) attenuators that I use on various amps, a Hot Plate, a Power Station and a custom unit that was built for me by an engineer in Tampa named Mike VanSevers. Some of them sound better on different amps than others. Having said that though, if all you need is -3dB attenuation and you want the most transparent sound possible, set your attenuator to LOAD and make sure it matches the impedance of your cab. You then plug the attenuator into an open speaker jack on your amp and set your amp impedance to half. For example, your cabinet is 8 ohms. Your attenuator is set for load and is 8 ohms. Set your amp impedance to 4 ohms and plug in your cab and attenuator. Your amp then thinks it is seeing two cabs and the power output is split in half.

I use this with my Komet 60 and Hot Plate and it is as transparent as you will ever get.

 

[jay1williams]

get a load box and a speaker simulator - Palmer, Suhr -

Jet City attenuator / Bugera FS1 may be a tad bit darker than a Dr Z attenuator - but you almost always lose some highs...

 

[Barber]

thanks all for the replies,

... set your attenuator to LOAD and make sure it matches the impedance of your cab. You then plug the attenuator into an open speaker jack on your amp and set your amp impedance to half. For example, your cabinet is 8 ohms. Your attenuator is set for load and is 8 ohms. Set your amp impedance to 4 ohms and plug in your cab and attenuator. Your amp then thinks it is seeing two cabs and the power output is split in half.

I use this with my Komet 60 and Hot Plate and it is as transparent as you will ever get.

this is an interesting idea I never thought about,
the dirty Shirley mini has 2x 8ohm output jacks (and a single 16ohm),,, if I ran an 8ohm cab, and an 8ohm attenuator, into the two 8 ohm jacks …. but then wouldn't the amp only be seeing a 4 ohm load? but there is no switch to change ohms, but if the amp is designed to take two 8 ohm cabs in parallel, then it must be fine to use it like that

i'll have to get learned on ohmage, not my strong point

 

[Barber]

What about earplugs....

are there any that cut db's with less loss of tone than an attenuator? I'd be interested to check some out

 

[jimmyjames]

Maybe Hearos.

 

[The Ballzz]

@Barber
Even though many (including some of the makers) call units like the Fryette Power Station, OX, BadCat Unleash, etc, "attenuators" that is not really the case. They instead provide a usually reactive dummy load for the amp's output to "see" and derive a line signal from that load and then re-amplify it with another power amp to drive the speakers. Some brands are reactive, some are not, as well as some providing equalization and/or effects loop and many, various other features. These units should be more accurately called "RE-AMPERS!"

As for actual "passive" attenuators that simply "shed" wattage as heat, some are simple resisitve designs that change the sound and response (usually more dramatically as the perceived volume gets squashed progressively more and more) and many of even the better regarded units like the Webers tend to have only a couple/few "sweet spots" where they mess with the tone the least.

By far, the best "passive" units I've experienced are the reactive/resistive ones developed by @johnh from the Marshall forum. Although these units are not commercially available, the schematics and detailed testing results, along with comments from many who have happily built them are at the link I'll provide below. If you (or a friend) have reasonable tool and soldering skills, they are easily and fairly inexpesively built. For that matter, if you are located in the US, I'm preparing to probably offer an assembly service for those who aren't so mechanically inclined! They do not offer a continuously variable sweep knob, but are instead operated in switched steps of -3.5db each and each of those steps provide a genuine "sweet spot" that retains the amp's true character. FWIW, when done I will have built at least three of these units, customized for permanent installation in at least three of my amps! I may even install one in one of my more popularly used speaker cabinets, for use with any other amp that may come along! My current single unit "layout test bed" has become the most liberating piece of gear I've ever owned in 50+ years as a gigging guitarist! It easily allows me to crank any amp (under 50 watts) into it's happy zone and then adjust the volume to the situation.

Here's a link to the design thread at the Marshall forum:

Simple Attenuators - Design And Testing

Background Passive attenuators are wired between the amp output and the speakers. Their function is to absorb most of the output power of the amp, feeding a smaller amount to the speaker itself. This allows the amp output stage to run at higher power, letting the glorious tone of a good valve...

www.marshallforum.com

And some pics of my first assembly iteration:

You Asked.....
Gene

 

[Kyle76]

Years ago, when concerts were unbelievably loud, I wore Norton Sonic Ear Valves to a show after seeing the same show a week before without them. I came out of the first show with ears ringing and barely able to hear anything for awhile. Wearing the ear valves to the second show, I felt like I could hear the show fine, but my hearing was normal when I walked out the door. They are designed to allow normal decibel levels to flow through but attenuate very loud noises. I also wear them shooting and feel like they help. Apparently, they are no longer sold under that name, but these are touted to be their replacement: https://www.earplugstore.com/health-enterprises-acu-life-impact-ear-plugs.html

 

[redking]

I think this is the best way to use an attenuator (shave off that extra 5 db that rattles your brain) rather than trying to get to bedroom levels. The guys on That Pedal Show use the Fryette Power Station in some of their older videos when they were cranking Dan's old Vox AC 30 and to my ears they sounded great (although their audio is slightly "produced" and compressed by Youtube) Here they use it to tame an old Hiwatt.

 

[ErictheRed]

-3dB is absolutely nothing in perceived volume, you're underestimating how much attenuation you will need. You'll likely need -9 to -15, I would wager.

I've owned quite a few attenuators over the years, as well as amps with multiple power settings and Power Scaling, and built-in attenuators. I thought that the best external attenuator that I had was the Fryette Power Station 2 (mostly used with an old Hiwatt), but in the end got rid of them all. I now prefer to use the right amp for the job.

In my opinion, the absolute best amp, by far, I mean BY FAR, that retained the same great volume-wide-open sound at basically any volume was the Suhr Badger. I highly recommend that amp, and while it has it's own vibe, it's definitely in the Marshall camp like your Friedman. Neither my Reeves Custom 50PS or Custom Lead PS or Tone King Majesty worked nearly as well as the Suhr. The Marshall Studio Classic worked well in 5W mode, and I assume the Studio Vintage would as well.

The Fryette Power Station would be my recommendation if you must have an external attenuator.

I would try high-quality earplugs first, though. I just ordered these but haven't received them yet: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07S7DMXG5/ref=psdcmw_3779871_t2_B0032BYCWG.

In my opinion, you will waste a lot of time and money trying to find the perfect attenuator, and never be satisfied. For your situation, better to just find some really high quality ear plugs, or for maybe not too much more than the cost of a Fryette Power Station, buy a second amp that will work better at lower volumes.

 

[Dazza]

I've used a few different attenuators over many years. As you describe I use them simply to knock off a few db and not squish a blaring stage amp down to bedroom levels. There's plenty of models with varied options, some more complex than others.

I regularly gig in a backline to tribute artists using a Marshall 1973X. It's 20 watts 2x12 and I use a Dr Z Brake lite. Typically 1 click down is enough. I found the 2nd click affected a little too much so adjusted the internal clip along the resistor to suit. Between those 2 settings I'm happy with the result. It's a simple device and readily found in the used market. I have the big version for use with higher power amps, also an Ultimate attenuator.

I use the same gear at home in a spare room.

Daz

 

[Big John]

...2x 8ohm output jacks (and a single 16ohm),,, if I ran an 8ohm cab, and an 8ohm attenuator, into the two 8 ohm jacks …. but then wouldn't the amp only be seeing a 4 ohm load? but there is no switch to change ohms, but if the amp is designed to take two 8 ohm cabs in parallel, then it must be fine to use it like that...

Those two 8 ohm jacks means an 8 ohm total load. So either plug in one 8 ohm speaker or two 16 ohm speakers into those jacks. If you plug two 8 ohm speakers in, then you're connecting a 4 ohm total load.

 

[Big John]

If you want to try NotScott's trick of using an attenuator like a stand-alone speaker load, you'll have to use a series speaker jumper cable between the combo's 8 ohm speaker and an 8 ohm attenuator to make a 16 ohm total load. Then you just plug into the amp's single 16 ohm jack.

It's a handy trick that will cut the wattage going to the combo's speaker in half.

 

[The Ballzz]

While I agree that re-amp style "attenuators" can work quite well, they are a bit less than convenient to use and certainly not inexpensive. It boils down to basically carrying/using two amplifiers, along with the need to supply an additional AC outlet to run it and then you can get into annoying grounding issues, etc. There is the added benefit however of many of the "re-ampers" adding a post amplifier effects loop for amps that don't have a loop (think Deluxe Reverb, many older Marshalls, etc) along with IR features, line out, EQ functions and many other features. I really don't see the practicality of purchasing a $1200 OX to tame the volume of a $500 to $1200, 20-ish or 30-ish watt amp!

On the other hand, I've tried many of the well regarded "passive attenuators" since my first exposure to the ALTAIR unit in they late '70s and that ALTAIR was horrible, even at minimal attenuation levels. Every one of them have introduced anomalies and artifacts to the sound and yes, the farther you squash the volume, the worse it usually gets! This newer design concept (linked above) pioneered/developed by JohnH really does address the pitfalls exhibited my most other passive units. Although I've not actually used a Dr Z unit, I have seen the innards in pics and it appears that Dr Z has also hit upon the key being a proper balance between parallel and series resistors within the unit. The addition of inductive choke coils helps retain the "feel/response" of the amp as the amount of attenuation increases. Even though there is no substitute for the loss of movement of air by the speaker(s) as the volume goes down, this aspect is at least minimized a bit by this design. Also, that "balance" of series vs parallel resistance is much sipler and easier to maintain with swithched steps, as opposed to introducing a variable resistor into the circuit.

Through many years of trial and error, I've found this attenuator design to be just about the most transparent passive unit at an affordable price point. I'm estimating that having an experienced tech build one, ready to plug in should be in the neighborhood of $180 to $200. While I have no desire to become a commercial builder or "vendor" I am open to contacts through a private "Conversation" to discuss various options for convenient parts sourcing and possibly having some of the fabrication work performed. Again, while not a vendor, I'm simply endeavoring to share the benefits of this stellar design with those who might enjoy it. It really is the best I've encountered so far.

Thanks For Reading My Rant!
Gene

 

[The_Nuge]

Hi!
I've built 2 DIY AirBrake clones, and these are really quite transparent at all but the highest attenuation levels.
I'm also thinking that you'll need more than 3-5dB attenuation, so do try first!

If you're located anywhere within reasonable shipping distance of Stuttgart, Germany, you're more than welcome to borrow mine!

 

[Barber]

Hi!
I've built 2 DIY AirBrake clones, and these are really quite transparent at all but the highest attenuation levels.
I'm also thinking that you'll need more than 3-5dB attenuation, so do try first!

If you're located anywhere within reasonable shipping distance of Stuttgart, Germany, you're more than welcome to borrow mine!

many thanks for the kind offer unfortunately I'm not close to germany, but I'll definitely check out some demo's on the airbrake

 

[Dazza]

Results will vary depending what is being used and how. I've had certain amps react more favourably with one attenuator over another. Why I can't say, but it's been my experience.

The Dr Z units I use do a decent job. The Air Brake bedroom level will take volumes down further yes. It could be considered useful played at home, but it's not what I'd call a very inspiring tone. But in saying that I recall some users saying otherwise. Maybe they run cleaner amps with less natural compression ?

A mate commented on how using an Air Brake made his set-up sound fizzy. On investigation it was a JCM900 with the preamp full and already sounded like a bee in a jam jar to my ears. Compressing that signal down with attenuation gave the result I'd expect.

The Ultimate Attenuator is a re-amping device. It better holds the integrity of the original tone / feel over a wider volume range. I've used it mostly with a JMP or JTM45 on stage. The foot switchable dual volume is useful in that situation.

Some will suggest using a pedal. I enjoy TPS as many do, but I'm old school and believe in a good guitar and amp. I had my 20watt Marshall years before ever plugging a pedal into it. That natural tone over a range of guitars is enough for me.

Every attenuator type will have some impact on an amp. I play at home and out for a living with a variety of gear that suits my needs in each area. Finding that 'happy medium' where volume, tone and feel are in balance is totally down to the individual. We're all different. A colleague loves playing through his Helix - I couldn't find it less inspiring.

Dazza

 

[The Ballzz]

@Dazza ,
That pretty well sums it all up in a nut shell! I've tried many of the passive units mentioned here, as well as the Weber MiniMass but have not tried a re-amping unit, though I understand the principle and I'll bet they work great! I must say though that the unit I mentioned and pictured above, mess with the tone, feel and response much less than any other passive unit I've tried.
Just My $.02,
Gene